Curse

Winterclaw · Feb 16, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

I've seen more than a few posts from people who want to run build X which entails using a lot of skills or skill points in your secondary. As well as I can remember it usually turns out to be a bad idea, but there are some situations where you can get away with it.

What I want to know is: when is it most practicle and effective to do such a thing?

Dr Strangelove · Feb 16, 2008, 01:21 AM // 01:21

When they're effective. Ask yourself "Does this skill work best on me, or would it be better placed on another character in the group", and act accordingly.

Biostem · Feb 16, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I've seen more than a few posts from people who want to run build X which entails using a lot of skills or skill points in your secondary. As well as I can remember it usually turns out to be a bad idea, but there are some situations where you can get away with it.

What I want to know is: when is it most practicle and effective to do such a thing?

The biggest case where this is done is when you have a primary-profession-specific attribute that greatly increases the performance of your secondary skills. A good example is when a necromancer puts 12 points into a secondary attribute, and relies on a high soul reaping rating to keep him going.

Another good example is when you only need 2 or so skills form a primary line to cause a really good synergy w/ some secondary skills. An example I use on one of my heroes is going air magic on an elementalist hero, taking glimmering mark, then taking some AoE lightning spells from ritualists and using them to inflict pretty good AoE damage and cause blindness. Not the best example, but you get my idea. Another idea would be to use a ranger's expertise in conjunction w/ a variety of touch skills from other professions to great effect.

Winterclaw · Feb 16, 2008, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Dr. Strangelove: That's a good response, but people don't always have a good idea if a skill would be good on them. I mean I remember dissing Frozen Burst, then after being ridaculed about not liking it I tried it and found it was good in PvP.

Killed u man · Feb 16, 2008, 01:58 AM // 01:58

At OP: Usually when one has more secondary skills than primary, it's "broken".

1) Primary Attribute "abuse":

N/Any, with the /Any (Whatever profession) abuses the (near) infite amount of Energy from Soul Reaping... As Above Poster said.

Me/Any abuse F(ast)C(ast) with alot of "long" casts, such as FC-Air and FC-fire mesmers. They spam as much fire/air magic skills in as little time as possible, to overwhelm enemies...

E/Any will (often) abuse energy storage and/or Master of Magic. MoM is and EXCELLENT skill to be abused in spam builds. (With MoM, Aura of Rest and Gole one can spam /Rt heals indefinatly, unlike the N/Rt, which relies on stuff dying)

Touch Necro might be the most common example. (Followed by N/Rt)

Etc, etc...

2) Profession based "attributes" (Armor/regen) abuse-age:

Doesn't see too much play, but I have made W/P builds, with 14 Strenght and Dolyak Signet. The total ammount of armor would lie around 160 (something a para couldn't reach due armorlack/no Dolyak Signet) and the rest where ALL para skills.

3) Redicilous attribute lines:

Ritspikes often have: Spirit Rift, (Second spike skill) on their bar, followed with 5 /E, /Mo, /N, /Whatever skills...
The only reason they go rit is for the redicilous ammount of Spirit Rift at 16 Channeling...

Pick Me · Feb 19, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

At OP: Usually when one has more secondary skills than primary, it's "broken".

1) Primary Attribute "abuse":

N/Any, with the /Any (Whatever profession) abuses the (near) infite amount of Energy from Soul Reaping... As Above Poster said.

Me/Any abuse F(ast)C(ast) with alot of "long" casts, such as FC-Air and FC-fire mesmers. They spam as much fire/air magic skills in as little time as possible, to overwhelm enemies...

E/Any will (often) abuse energy storage and/or Master of Magic. MoM is and EXCELLENT skill to be abused in spam builds. (With MoM, Aura of Rest and Gole one can spam /Rt heals indefinatly, unlike the N/Rt, which relies on stuff dying)

Touch Necro might be the most common example. (Followed by N/Rt)

Etc, etc...

2) Profession based "attributes" (Armor/regen) abuse-age:

Doesn't see too much play, but I have made W/P builds, with 14 Strenght and Dolyak Signet. The total ammount of armor would lie around 160 (something a para couldn't reach due armorlack/no Dolyak Signet) and the rest where ALL para skills.

3) Redicilous attribute lines:

Ritspikes often have: Spirit Rift, (Second spike skill) on their bar, followed with 5 /E, /Mo, /N, /Whatever skills...
The only reason they go rit is for the redicilous ammount of Spirit Rift at 16 Channeling...

Touch Necro?? I think you mean Touch Ranger (R/N).

The advise given I agree with from everyone.

To me, W/Mo using lots of points into Healing Prayers is a bad idea, but I've never tried it.

llsektorll · Feb 20, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I've seen more than a few posts from people who want to run build X which entails using a lot of skills or skill points in your secondary. As well as I can remember it usually turns out to be a bad idea, but there are some situations where you can get away with it.

What I want to know is: when is it most practicle and effective to do such a thing?

In the end it only matters in what situation and how you are going to be using them.

As in the case with touch rangers they are using almost all necro skills. N/Mo healers in HA use almost all monk skills. Fast cast fire uses almost all fire skills on a mesmer.

It only matters in the context.

Chael · Feb 20, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

When you're a PvE Mesmer.
Ha-ha!

stanza · Feb 22, 2008, 08:26 AM // 08:26

I mainly play with h/h and as a monk i find that with the 3 necro setup and 1 momk hench i become redundant. I could replace the hench monk but as im the only one able to take the pve skills it dilutes my effectiveness.

Recently I've been book farming rep points so switched to Mes secondary to use archane echo and PI (reduce a jotun/ flameshielder to jelly in 3 sec) Aus Incant needed to fuel it. Pleak, Pspike to stop the really bad spells in case Zho misses.
I take empathy cos it can almost instakill a destroyer of hordes and assassins. Ebon vanguard assassin cos he can keep a caster subdued for sometime.
As elite i have UB but its not very effective with just me and i only ever use it when short on minions so im going to swap it for a monk 1 ( or maybe sig of illusions?)

leaves me 2 slots which i take Aegis and PS.

To sum up ..I like the pve skills but because Only I can take them and some are too godly to ignore my skill bar becomes less effective for my primary prof. Also the hench monk are better at heal/prot than hench damage dealers are at damage.

So although my bar is not any build as such it is effective in supporting the entire team and upping its damage output.

AshenX · Feb 22, 2008, 10:17 AM // 10:17

In general relying heavily on skills from your secondary is practical when your Primary profession's unique attribute greatly augments/synergizes with the skills from your secondary. For example I have recently been playing around with a Ranger/Paragon spearmaster build. With a reasonable expertise from ranger I can use energy based paragon skills repeatedly without worrying too much about running out of energy. By going ranger primary I gve up having a spear mastery above 12 but gained the ability to spam energy based spear attacks and shouts.

Jam Jar · Mar 01, 2008, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Alot of the /W builds too. Of course I doubt many of these builds have more warrior skills than the primary's skills, but you're most likely going to use the slash and hack skills the most.

**Marty Silverblade** · Mar 01, 2008, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jam Jar

Alot of the /W builds too. Of course I doubt many of these builds have more warrior skills than the primary's skills, but you're most likely going to use the slash and hack skills the most.

There's no way you'd be using Warrior attack skills on anything other than a Warrior with any efficiency. Think of it like this: Elementalists are there to blow stuff up. If they're busy attacking something in melee, then they aren't casting. You'll be doing crap damage with the weapon aswell, since you need 14 in your weapon mastery to hit all breakpoints and maximise damage. Also, you probably won't have the armor for it. If you're going /W, then it'll be for a defensive stance. In PvE, there isn't really a need to do this, in PvP I've seen Monks use Frenzied Defence to some useful effect.

Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, just wanted to use this as an example.

Draginvry · Mar 01, 2008, 11:54 AM // 11:54

IMHO, the only reason to use mostly secondary skills is:

1) Primary attribute abuse.
2) Innate armor/regen abuse.

In the first case, you are abusing the advantage of a primary attribute and skills. This includes builds like necro-rits, rit-bombers, FC nukers, FC healers (less usefull with the buff to Heal Party casting time), Scythe Assassins, Orders Dervishes, Packhunters, or Touch Rangers. Most of these builds are either variants of regular builds, or specific builds for specific types of areas and teams.

In the second scenario, one is abusing the innate armor or energy regen bonus of a class. This includes things like Spear Warriors, Packhunters, Castassins, and a few others. This tactic is less common, and generally not as usefull. Good classes for this are the ranger, paragon, and dervish. They have a good combination of armor and options for energy management.

But 90% of the time, I'd rather have rangers using bows and paragons using spears. There normally isn't any overarching reason to switch them up.

RavagerOfDreams · Mar 01, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

When they're effective. Ask yourself "Does this skill work best on me, or would it be better placed on another character in the group", and act accordingly.

quoted for epic truth